Defeat, Entrapment & Suicide. A Recent Model of Suicidality

Since writing about my own Crohn’s disease and social unsupport-related suicide (well, euthanasia) attempts I have researched suicide a bit and found something interesting.  Much more interesting than the usual twaddle about anxiety, depression and so-called “mental health” issues that sorry, every woman in this hell-dimension probably experiences somewhat regularly as oppressed people who are almost always trying to keep things alive in a necrophilic culture whether it be plants, pets, children, partners, elderly parents and/or ourselves.

In my estimation, the unusually high stakes of that particular game and myriad of obstacles intentionally placed in our way — meaning quite literally that if we let our guards down for a fucking second, and even if we don’t, literal death will come knocking for ourselves and/or our dependents for which we will suffer both the loss and the blame — would tend to be anxiety-producing in many, most if not all women.  Understanding intellectually, intuitively and/or by experience that our role as lifekeepers in a more or less global necrophilic (patriarchal) context is likely to be impossibly difficult (and ultimately futile, because mortality) is depressing.  And when I say depressing, obviously I mean that any of us would be forgiven if we just couldn’t get up the mental or physical energy to do it anymore.

And we all know the effects of gaslighting by now since it was very helpfully illustrated in a play and then 2 derivative Hollywood movies that perhaps not very many modern people have seen but which concept has come to be understood and referenced in popular culture as well as in clinical and research literature studying abuse — the intent and effect of gaslighting is to deliberately drive the victim insane.  So we have deliberately and predictably anxiety-producing living conditions for most if not all women, which conditions are or become depressing due to futility and exhaustion and then everyone we know and indeed our entire culture/s gaslight us about all of this — telling us in a million ways every day that these conditions that are demonstrably real, aren’t — until we crack, if we don’t die first.  There’s your “mental health” crisis innit.

Honestly piss on so-called mental health if that’s the case since no one except an insane asshole wouldn’t be negatively affected by all of this.  There’s a reason males are held as the paragon/standard of mental health, and we should always, always keep in mind that the “people” who diagnose, treat and study this stuff — doctors and researchers — are literally torturing and killing animals for science for fun and profit.  The ones who are morally or otherwise opposed to torturing and killing animals for fun and profit have no choice but to exit the medical and research fields early on, often by committing suicide themselves (srsly, check out that link, it’s a doozy and describes medical students experimenting on live animals in required “lab” classes in medical school, and doctors flogging corpses and whatnot in practice, or choosing to kill themselves if they can’t).  Oh and P.S., there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance in the brain causing these things and therefore no chemical in Big Pharma’s arsenal is likely to successfully treat anyone’s anxiety, depression, insanity or suicidal tendencies and the “treatments” actually tend to make things worse over time.  But I digress.

Anyway, as the above video explains, considering issues of defeat and entrapment in cases of attempted or completed suicide seems to be a new development in the field of “suicidology” (WTF) and this material gave me much food for thought.  While it is beyond the scope of this post to delve deeply into the research, a few things stand out to me and seem worthy of further thought and discussion.

Firstly, and this may (or may not) be minor point, defeat is conflated with “humiliation” in the literature, which seems to be a decidedly and jarringly male standard doesn’t it?  Humiliation is probably the least of my own troubles now that I’ve been so roundly defeated by chronic illness and social unsupport that I am facing a future of homelessness and serious illness at the same time.  If, like many homeless women, I end up raped and pregnant on top of it, my humiliated feelings about my situation will not be my main concern, or even in the top 10 or 100 or 1000.  Rather, my main concern/s will certainly be the very material reality of being completely victimized, completely colonized, completely at the mercy of Western medicine for both my disease and my “condition” of forced pregnancy and the diktates — medical, legal, religious and so on — of patriarchal motherhood.

This is what women face when we are “defeated” and it is directly related to what we were trying to accomplish in the first place: to somehow, some way, for some period of time, protect ourselves from the worst patriarchy has to offer specifically females, meaning, female-bodied people under a more or less global patriarchy.  Truly, being born female is the ultimate humiliation under this regime and we experience this as seconds-old infants.  I think I’m over it by now, yet defeat remains on the table: this means that for some of us, meaning for women, defeat and humiliation are separate and distinct although they are not treated separately in the literature.  The straightforwardness or even the applicability at all of this model to females then, where our experience is othered from the start is questionable, but let’s keep going.

In these most recent models highlighting the roles of defeat and entrapment in cases of attempted and/or completed suicide, feelings of entrapment in this defeated (or for males, humiliated) state lead directly to suicidal behaviors, or act as the bridge between mere suicidal thoughts/ideation and attempted and/or completed suicide.  (Entrapment is also known as arrested flight or arrested escape.)  When a person is defeated and trapped in that defeated state, the mind then “ruminates” — another judgement-laden term Western psychiatry favors much like anxiety and depression —  but it’s not for no reason.  Like an animal trapped in a cage, the ruminant human mind tries desperately to locate an exit/escape from the trap and it will continue to do so until it finds one.  If there is no escape presumably the mind continues to work on the problem forever, or until something stops it: death for example, or a mental vacation from the horrific reality if you can manage it, or the literal chemical lobotomy offered by psychiatric drugs if you can’t.  

And so-called “rigid thinking” prolongs this ruminative state, where various supposed “options” are discarded without due thought, but let us be mindful of who is making these determinations of what are viable options for us and what are not: men, in particular Western medical doctors and researchers who have often demonstrated their own willingness to torture and kill animals and people if that’s what stands between themselves and their professional financial and status goals and who likely have never met (or recognized) a true dilemma in their privileged fucking lives.  Some problems have no solutions you fucking twats, for example, runaway climate change and other things that implicate the exponential function (like gestation for another example, where 2 cells become 4 and then 8).  Women know this.

There is also the “problem” of being deliberately materially oppressed, where material resources are withheld on purpose through various overlapping and interplaying systems in order to serve a political goal — the complete disenfranchisement and complete colonization of females by males from which there is demonstrably no escape by design.  If there is a solution to that problem my ruminating lady brain hasn’t found it yet — and 100 years of feminist activating in the West has similarly failed.

So what am I getting at here?  For all the above-noted flaws, and surely more I haven’t addressed, I found the concepts of defeat and entrapment helpful additions to the suicidological literature which has been so lacking (and frankly rigid, which is the worst and most invalid thing ever except when the dominant culture does it) in its implicating and prioritizing anxiety, depression and “mental health” in the cultural conversation around suicide.  For example, does it matter at all how anyone feels/thinks about their own defeat, such that it would be amenable to treatment with talk or cognitive therapy?  I don’t know, but assuming that treating suicidality and/or preventing suicide is a legitimate medical practice and a reasonable social goal, and I’m not sure it is, it seems like the “defeat” concept has the most potential to be helpful if only because the “entrapment” concept, while interesting, is a dead-end: one article concluded that the defeat/entrapment model of suicidality, while probably correct, offers little in the way of a solution because to date, there is not and has never been an effective treatment for entrapment.  You don’t say.

Even more interestingly though, the defeat/entrapment model of suicidality also accurately describes (doesn’t it?) the very real, tangible dilemma of those seeking legal, medically assisted suicide for serious, incurable and progressive disease, where a chronically or terminally ill person has been essentially defeated by an irreversible disease-state, has failed at attaining a reasonable quality of life, and is trapped in a hopeless situation as well as being trapped in a sick and/or dying body.  Some communities have decided that treating and preventing suicidality under those facts is not a legitimate medical practice and is not a reasonable social goal, essentially making the case for rational suicide under some conditions of defeat and entrapment.

Of course, many communities have not adopted assisted suicide and do not consider any conditions of defeat/entrapment as being reasonably amenable to suicide.  But in any case, these “deciders” and policymakers are largely the same people — men — who equate defeat with humiliation, rather than equating defeat with real, tangible negative outcomes which is how women experience defeat where we are thwarted in our attempts to survive as oppressed people.*

In fact, for women, we are entrapped when we are defeated: these things are one in the same, where our “successes” are often merely escaping the worst that patriarchy has to offer for another day, or month (=rent) or year.  When we can’t do that anymore we are both defeated and entrapped, and there is no treatment for entrapment, thus there is no treatment for defeat either.  Not for women anyway.  For men, it seems as if a successful treatment for the problem of suicidality — if it even is a problem and I’m not sure it is — would seem to be (perhaps?) to deflate their massive egos so that they don’t suffer humiliation when they fail (or to stop giving men opportunities to succeed in the first place).

Whereas giving women money might stop us from topping ourselves, and that includes our use of medically-assisted suicide which we are known to seek when we are no longer able to take care of ourselves and can’t pay anyone to help us either.  Excruciating pain (and defeat) we can often handle, such as the case of UK Crohn’s sufferer Marie Lopez, who chose medically assisted suicide when her benefits were cut and she was no longer provided help with the activities of daily living such as cooking, cleaning, shopping and the like.  She had suffered the daily pain and indignities of Crohn’s disease for some 30 years by then and only sought to end her life when she had exhausted her personal resources and could no longer afford full-time in-home care.

This really wasn’t where I was headed with this post, but truly, it seems as if anyone were actually serious about “suicide prevention” the solutions are pretty clear — I’ve outlined them above.  Since the (alleged) problem of attempted and/or completed suicide has not been solved, one could reasonably conclude that continuing to talk about it in disingenuous terms is its own ends, or a means to an end.  And kindly note that it is possible — because I’ve just done it — to intelligently discuss suicide, using the medical literature, without the useless language of anxiety, depression and mental health.  Also note that despite that possibility, almost no one ever does.

*Seriously, what are the anti-suicide squad even saying here?  That it’s unacceptable to kill yourself over humiliation?  Duh.  I doubt most women ever would.

Comments Open.

55 thoughts on “Defeat, Entrapment & Suicide. A Recent Model of Suicidality

  1. It’s like the whole thing of men killing themselves over being dishonored. Which is really such a cry baby thing to do, like oh no I did something people say is embarrassing so I’m going to have to kill myself. The worst thing they can even think of is being embarrassed by other men. It’s also a huge thing for men to jerk off too. There’s a whole fetish about them wanting to be embarrassed, which of course usually has to do with something making them be seen as feminine.

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  2. Exactly. They are huge babies honestly. And this bleeding edge model of suicidality just tells us something everyone already knows but tries to act like it applies to everyone when it doesn’t. The entire conversation around suicide is completely incoherent. At the same time, I found the defeat/entrapment concept relevent to my own situation, only in my case it’s actually real and not perceived defeat/entrapment. As it is for all women and all seriously ill people on some level, even if they have help. Like, they are literally describing the conditions of medically assisted suicide only they are framing it as a potential suicide prevention strategy even as they admit it wont work bc there is no treatment for being trapped! This is complete incoherent madness. What the fuck.

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  3. We’re all so physically trapped no matter what, I feel the being trapped in a cage feeling constantly. Like I go back and forth mentally and physically because there’s just no where else to go. There’s literally no physical space to go outside and feel remotely safe/comfortable/relaxed because there’s always horrible men at every turn making sure we know what danger we’re in. When I would go for dog walks all the time for my dog and neighbors, it became more about how to get men to go away more than anything else. It makes me feel so angry and disgusted and scared how they act it feels like I am just flagellating myself going outside at all now. I don’t get hardly any enjoyment from it anymore, it’s all too awful with all the men and all the garbage and polluted air to breathe on top of it all. From reading lots of stuff from women who have been all over, they say Japan and Sweden are the safest places to go around freely. I think to myself a lot, do I seriously have to go all the way to Japan to even go for an enjoyable walk where I feel safe, the most simple of freedoms? How the hell could any woman claim she is free? Then I think of how seriously drugged up and out of touch with reality most people are.

    I’ve never even had a nice closed off yard before in my life with living here in suburb/city life. So there’s no where that’s mine on this Earth. I have to stay crammed in a building for peace and safety. I desperately want to buy land since I’ve come to understand how it’s the only thing that really matters and it’s what’s been stolen from us, but even then I’ll still be trapped in a little section of the Earth, unable to roam freely and men might still try to come on my land and hunt me down. It’s still the ultimate taboo to admit that men are fucking predators and it affects our every movement being prey, but we have to live this hellish reality every day while we’re supposed to be denying it at the same time. No matter how bad things get we always have to deal with men’s violent rapey nature and all the horror that inflicts on us on top of everything. Even if a man hits rock bottom and ends up homeless at least he doesn’t have to worry about rape and forced impregnation.

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  4. I’ve always thought of the idea that I had the ability to kill myself as comforting. I’ve never wanted to do it, not really, I’ve had plenty of thoughts that I just wanted it to end no matter what but never to the point where it got bad enough to do it. I hope I never do end up in a situation where I want to and I hate for other people to end up in such awful situations. I’ve seen enough of it and don’t want to deal with any more, a few of my best friends tried to kill themselves and my dad did kill himself. But the idea that no matter what happens and what control is taken away from me I am still free to kill myself is extremely comforting.

    Whenever I hear about all the anti abortion crap, and how they’re winning in a lot of ways to take away what little rights we’ve reclaimed, I always think how no one could ever force me to bring an unwanted baby in this world to suffer and inflict suffering on me because I would kill myself before that would happen. If every right over my own body is taken away I am always still free to die at the very least.

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  5. I’ve always found it comforting too, since I was very young. It’s the only way I was able to “take risks” or “be brave” without completely panicking or diving into the first safe-appearing harbor that came along. Of course, now that I’ve tried it and failed, that comfort has been taken away. I’m not even afraid I might try again, I’m afraid I won’t be able to do it successfully if I ever need to, and I know I will probably need to. It is unbelievably hellish. In fact, I wonder if failed suicide is the reason people think suiciders go to hell! Or maybe why pretty much everyone tells you not to if you can avoid it. Bc if you wake up from it you really are in hell, even worse than you were before. Occasionally I half-wonder if I was successful, and if I really am dead and went to hell bc that’s truly how it feels. All the same hell you had before, with any additional negative effects of the attempts added on, and with one less thing to comfort you (the knowledge that you can leave at any time, which really isn’t as true as I thought). Ugh.

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  6. That’s an interesting thought that failed suicide is the reason that people think killing yourself means you go to hell. No matter what is happening that would be so terrifying to actually attempt to go though with it. We have no idea what’s waiting for us in death and it’s so scary to leave the only thing we know. Then a failed attempt inflicts so much more physical and mental pain on top of everything else. When animals are euthanized they get to have a humane death surrounded by loved ones but we aren’t allowed that. My dog had so much suffering at the end of her life and I feel terrible still for not getting her the shots earlier but I was so young and didn’t want her to leave me and I just didn’t know anything and thought she would just go on her own. But her death itself was comforting in a way because after having a very painful time being so unwell she was able to just drift off with the shots that made it so she didn’t feel any suffering any more.

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  7. I have no idea how long and to what extent WordPress is going to allow us to discuss suicide here, but women especially need to think about how and whether they would like to exit when the time comes and recognize how hard it is and that they will likely need help especially if they are very sick and/or disabled including mobility problems. For me, the one person I always thought would always be there for me no matter what, and who I would entrust to help me with something like that (and who I would also help if she asked) is currently saddled with MS herself, as well as having 4 kids and no resources including no ability to travel to help me even if she wanted to. And I wouldn’t be able to travel to help her either. There is also an unfortunate helium shortage right now, which removes an excellent resource from the table for most people (unless you happen to own a party supply store or a nuclear reactor). And I’ve heard that putting Tylenol in opiate products makes them unreliable for self-deliverance for some reason. I’m not sure why, since Tylenol by itself is supposed to be lethal in high doses, but that’s what I read in Final Exit. BTW at least one of his methods for self-deliverance doesn’t always work. :/

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  8. What does helium do?

    I didn’t know WordPress censors stuff?? I thought the point of being on these sort of underground platforms here with no advertising or affiliations or anything is that anyone can say whatever they want?

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  9. Suicide seems to be the final taboo in this culture anyway. I know WP censors for calling male trannies by their legal/given names, so I honestly don’t even know what the rules are anymore. WP at one point was better than Blogger (Google) but who knows now. And people’s friends and families are always wanting to blame other people when someone they allegedly love commits suicide. Being that that’s the case, I would ask that you search for helium yourself and see what you find. It’s the way doctors do it if that tells you anything, unless they are anesthesiologists, in which case they just find an empty room and anesthetize themselves. Must be nice to have options.

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  10. Men are much better killers than women even with themselves. They usually just use guns. My dad just shot himself. That would be such a scary and awful way to die. The desire to make it less awful for women tends to lead to taking pills. I wonder if maybe they will let people have humane euthanasia once things go to hell even more and we start to see more collapse. Australia is looking pretty apocalyptic already. There’s seems to be a general sense of impending doom about people that you just see come out here and there in “whispers.” The people talking publicly are the hopeful ones that we can fix things.

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  11. Yes it must be nice for people who have options and control over their lives. Feeling the lack of control that comes from being poor and powerless is fucking brutal.

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  12. No way is Sweden safe now : hasn’t been since 70s. Blonde women there now dye hair dark out of desperation cos they’re racially targeted . Japan = yes, but only for local women

    But it always that our own corporal selves can hurt us more than any man…

    I,ve recently survived an attack by own Immune which I havent recovered from mentally. It was 3 day ago& I Suspect our apocalyptic weather was connected.For 3 hours, what was happening to me ,made me understand why Endo;s referred to as Giving birth every month. All I was expelling was a clot of uterine tissue,but my immune treated it as a political prisoner in need of torture

    Right after it was out -our first major rain/of summer began&smoke ended . Had spent 3 hours on toilet ,partially blackingout from agony.it folowed a labour pattern too: maybe 2 mins on,2 mins off with a bit of endorphins

    I;d experienced lot of painful things,but I;d rate that as 16\10.i needed morphine really but going to hospital was a no-go. It;d be over by the time they;d triage & may not take it seriously cos Period Pain!

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  13. Google up: touch fentanyl

    Not that I have any – but that’s what’s killing addicts in droves these days.

    I have finally lost my motivation to have any control over how I exit. I’ll just be watching for opportunities.

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  14. Ikwym Mary. I’ve kind of lost my motivation too, but it’s easy to get rid of something you realize you never really had. Meaning control, over even that one fucking thing, the one thing that’s supposed to be a given. :/ I’ve also spent most of the last 6 years trying to avoid nausea and GI problems so severe I feel like I’m dying so taking pills for me, even if the assisted-suicide type would be counterproductive and frankly heinous torture for me now. I also probably couldn’t absorb them anyway. I frankly wondered about that from the beginning as Crohn’s is a disease of malabsorbtion innit. Man this just gets better and better and better.

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  15. Also I Googled and it said that touching Fentanyl is not fatal and that cops and others are creating fake news by saying it is. Fucking drama queens. If any first responders or others needed the antidote while on the job they probably ingested it on purpose and then blamed the dead junkie on the floor for their own intoxication. Blame the dead guy is such a sweet (well, classic) trick, I wonder if I will ever have the opportunity to use it!

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  16. Is Sweden overrun with Muslim men too now? I thought Japan would be safer for foreign women than Japanese women. They have plenty of their own problems, but it is a very orderly culture where it is far less acceptable for anyone to be a public nuisance. The women have all the obedient expectations still places on them in families and are in danger of domestic abuse like everywhere else but there’s a lot less random violence and harassment in public happening. I’ve seen women saying how when they traveled they feel so much safer than other places there to walk around freely.

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  17. Our bodies mostly hurt because of the poisoning though! If they wouldn’t have done this to us none of it would be as bad. Every single issue is either created by or made worse by it even it is naturally occurring. If they hadn’t poisoned us all, turned Australia into a burning hellhole, and instead you had a peaceful heathy environment, it would not be as painful. Even if the endometriosis would have happened naturally, it’s still not what your body is doing to you to be that bad. So I don’t don’t think we can really call any of this what our bodies are doing to us.

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  18. Weren’t they saying Fentanyl can kill you just touching trace amounts that you can’t see? So people were freaking out about it being on shopping carts or wherever, but they didn’t think to wonder how it wasn’t killing the addict to be able to supposedly get it all over the place without dying.

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  19. It’s so true that almost all of this pain is caused by males and male culture if you take it back to its origins, including autoimmune disease itself it seems. But that is where we are now. I would probably rather have a man kill me than be chronically ill. And I’m unwilling to speculate that being homeless is better than living with domestic violence, but that’s what everyone has always implied with all the “just leave him” stuff. Women seem to know that being homeless in this system is even worse than getting the shit beat out of you by a man, and that’s why they don’t just leave. Honestly what kind of rich (and literally and figuratively sheltered) asshole wouldn’t already know that?

    Have people ever seen the 70s movie “Soylent Green”? I just watched it for the first time recently. It’s been on my radar for awhile since a couple years ago when some genius started selling “Soylent” meal replacement shakes. Even though I hadn’t seen the movie yet, even I knew what Soylent meant and it was such an apocalyptic reference it was a bit shocking that anyone thought a food product called Soylent would be a good idea (spoiler alert: in the movie, Soylent stands for soy+lentils but the secret ingredient is dead human beings). Anyway, in the movie they have euthanasia centers available to anyone who wants them. You can just walk in 24/7 and wait in a short line, pick what music and color scheme you want and they kill you quickly and painlessly, and not with pills either IIRC. I think it’s done by injection. I have heard (and experienced) that the hardest thing about euthanasia is deciding what the right time is. Like, how to decide what will be your last day (or hour or moment), and why not just one more day, and one more etc until you end up dying of natural causes? But just having it as an option eases many people’s minds. I wonder what it would be like to live knowing that there was a euthanasia center available to anyone at any time. A lot of sick people end up getting the “green light” for assisted suicide then they never use it, but knowing they could increases their quality of life so drastically that they actually want to and are able to live, for a bit longer at least. I think that’s really interesting and makes a lot of sense.

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  20. i’m saving this thread because it’s so brilliant – not that there’s any posterity or any thing – but just knowing that it once existed is comforting and re-assuring. Like Valerie Solanis.

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  21. I saw part of Soylent Green before when I caught a random part of it on TV, I’ve never seen the whole thing but knew the gist of it. I couldn’t believe either that someone thought it was a good idea to name their actual product Soylent. I guess people buy it though cause it’s still around.

    In the part of the movie that I saw, this man was staying at some hotel or something and the owner said how the “furniture” comes with the room and he was obviously talking about the woman that was there for him to use. Women were even more dehumanized than it already is to the point of being seen as furniture. It seems the only way men can imagine euthanasia is a dystopian nightmare and never a loving end to prevent suffering. In these situations all they can imagine is the same cold heartless nightmare the medical system already is, but they kill you on purpose instead of just because they don’t give a shit or they want to experiment or torture you.

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  22. Have you ever heard of Welcome to the Monkey House by Kurt Vonnegut? I read the story Harrison Bergeron by him, which was an interesting story about how the government tried to make everyone equal by doing things to limit people who were exceptional at something, and then it lead me to read a bit more about his other stuff. The story was published in a book called Welcome to the Monkey House which was also the name of one of the stories which was apparently the one he thought was the best.

    It’s about a guy who calls himself “Billy the Poet” and it’s set in the future where to limit overpopulation people are given “ethical birth control” which numbs them from the waist down from experiencing sexual feelings. So they can reproduce because religious groups say it’s unethical to prevent conception but they have no sex drive or feelings. There are suicide parlors where people can go to die whenever they want and of course because men have to make everything perverted the suicide hostesses have to be sexy ladies in sexy outfits who must be virgins. Billy doesn’t agree with this and thinks people should have sex and use regular birth control so being the sensitive hero he is, he kidnaps suicide hostesses and rapes them to show them the joy of sex.

    This is part of the wiki page. “He intends to bring an innocent pleasure back into the world and tries to express his tenderness by leaving Nancy a book of poetry containing Elizabeth Barrett Browning’s “How do I love thee? Let me count the ways,” which was the poem his grandfather read to his grandmother on their wedding night. He does not see his actions as real violations toward the hostesses. He explains to Nancy that what she went through with him was pretty much the same thing a lot of brides experienced a hundred years ago on their wedding night. He claims that many hostesses have afterwards become sexual enthusiasts.”

    Afterwards he leaves her with a bottle of birth control pills with a note saying welcome to the monkey house. I didn’t read the story, I think reading the synopsis and quotes was quite enough of that for me. It was first published in Playboy.

    The only way men can imagine euthanasia is through their horrific understanding of things. Never as something where people are too ailing to go on so they leave life peacefully surrounded by loved ones and caring ethical professionals. Always as something horrible.

    At least animals are granted peaceful euthanasia. But then there are so many people that want to kill them at the drop of a hat from any little thing and so much of that is just horrible too.

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  23. When I took my dog to get euthanasia it was absolutely nerve wracking to decide when the “right time” would be. I held out way too long thinking she would pass on, on her own but she didn’t and she was just hanging on suffering. It is so hard to make that decision for someone who can’t tell you what they want, who you love so much and can’t stand the thought of them leaving you. It ended up being on the solstice when people thought the world was going to end because of the mayan calendar thing. She was just in so much pain and wasn’t going on her own.

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  24. Sweden’s the worst case of being overrun – it’s at un-acknowledged civil war level. Even its’ Scandinavian neighbours think it’s a self-destructive nut

    Japan’s safer in the sense that it still respects womens’ spaces- you can get separate hotels &train cars. Sadly, thanks to our own men running the ‘public c**** for global consumption’ Video Industry – it painted a target on our backs everywhere there’s web access

    Australia was too fragile for human existence always, I think. the original inhabitants caused a remarkable degree of destruction for such a small no. –by slashing& burning & thus turning it into a Desert. THe upside of that : It kept them safe for a long time {both the Dutch & Polynesian seafarers passed it by, considering there to be nothing worth takin}

    Then the Brits didn’t care how dry it was _* since it only needed it to dump undesirables on *. From then on things snow-balled:

    ~COnvicts eventually served out their sentences& didn’t bother going back since here they could live without stigma
    ~then came Gold& wool & ore
    ~so the place got rich & 1st World& started near topping Quality of Life charts
    ~hence people started clamouring to come here

    &Voila, here we’re, with 25 mil., on a thin strip of 1st World-level inhabitable land. What could possibly go wrong?!?

    But back to Suicide:

    During those agonising hours ,I felt a Body & soul split:
    Body says: End it already, this is too much
    Spirit says: “Nope, this isnt’ my time yet. I have things to do & look forward to here”

    I really wish I had laughing gas to get thru such attacks….

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  25. The body and spirit divide is such a good way to put it how the body wants to give out but spirit doesn’t. I’ve felt that way many times.

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  26. I wish you (and everyone) had something to take for the pain too kaguya. If I didn’t have to worry about stable housing and whatnot, I think I could be ok indefinitely with my mmj and my cats. Pain relief has made an enormous difference for me, including clearing my mind enough to write.

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  27. I’m sorry about your dog anotherwoman. I recently heard from someone else that they have regrets about putting an animal down too soon, so it really does seem as if there is not a perfect time. I’m not even sure that being surrounded by loved ones and whatnot is important at the end. Maybe animals (and us) are supposed to just crawl away and be alone when it’s time. Everything about death and dying is so fucked up in this culture, I don’t think anyone knows what the right thing to do is. But I feel strongly that everything we are doing is wrong for ourselves and our pets. Having animals as pets is wrong even (I think). These things should not fall on us, I don’t think we are worthy of the task honestly. Nature should take care of it, whatever that means. I even wonder if pain relief is wrong. Doesn’t pain itself make us produce natural painkillers so we wouldn’t feel it as much? Then Crohn’s patients at least would just starve to death bc we couldn’t eat. That sounds heavenly compared to what I’ve been through. And about the mind/body split, or body/soul, or whatever, I feel that too but I am starting to wonder if the “me” that wants to live is really the bazillions of bacteria and whatnot inside me that would die if I died. I’m starting to think those bastards have a say in what happens to me, and that is not anything I would have expected and I’m really not happy about it.

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  28. Did you see the recent South Park about how the bacteria are part of us and we’re not really one organism? I forgot the details already but I think Stan maybe Kyle finds out about how we’re made up of all these bacteria and we’re not totally ourselves and has a whole like existential crisis about it. They talked about fecal transplants too and everyone wanted the poop of some football player. Life is strange.

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  29. About the ethics of having animals, I saw people talking about it and someone said something like, if the animal was set free would it come back to you? And in all honesty that really sounds like the determining factor in what animals we should have living with us. Cats and dogs chose us. People did plenty of weird shit to them after that with all the selective breeding and whatnot but I don’t believe it was our decision to have them live with us. They saw humans there with food and came and ate with us and made friends. I have fish too and if I’m honest about whether it’s ethical to have them it’s not really because they would just swim away BUT everything has already been made so unnatural it isn’t ethical to not take care of them either. There’s no perfect thing to do. They are already in human care they can’t just go in the wild. They are not even in the place where they’re from and probably wouldn’t be able to survive in the wild anymore anyway. So trying to do some perfectly ethical thing just doesn’t exist and all we can do is try to do our best.

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  30. I don’t know anything about pain causing natural pain killers, pain is there to warn us about something wrong so we act and in nature we wouldn’t be in such severe pain for so long because we would just die. Going into shock from life threatening pain would cause pain relief chemicals to be released though as an organism is likely dying to make it less painful, but I don’t think chronic pain would do that.

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  31. Like Valerie Solanas (who did not discuss suicide, as far as I know) this conversation presents such a lucid understanding of the influences on female life that I want to preserve the convo in a psychic time vault along with Valerie’s SCUM Manifesto. 🙂

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  32. She talked about how there would be suicide centers for men to quietly and painlessly go kill themselves and the rest would just die out with women not reproducing any more.

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  33. That’s so funny about South Park. So I’m having the same thoughts as a 90s cartoon perpetual child (well, the same thoughts as the guys who created/writes him). I wonder what experiences people have that make them have the same thoughts like that. Since I’ve been researching gut biomes and whatnot, and since I’ve experienced something like a lizard brain/survival instinct for the first time, where I realized that there is something else running my show that I didn’t even know was there, it really does make me wonder WTF we even are and how much control over anything we even have. I’ve always been ambivalent at best about being alive, but now I have experienced something inside me that wants to LIVE. As sick as I am, and knowing what my life is likely to become at some point with a progressive disease and a progressively deteriorating climate/environment and whatnot, I have to say that’s fucking disturbing as hell. It’s not rational at all, but there it is.

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  34. Keeping birds seems cruel-they must fly. Our parrot came to as a rescue:got lost on a camping ground~hang ed around ppl &begged!
    People also don’t cater to bird needs the way they do with cats &dogs.Horses ;re a curio: They continue aving minds of their own; They say that domestic canines all came from a single wolf family

    I discovered I have Sjogren ;s too^had it since early childhood in fact.The more|The merrier with AI sorts! I;m afraid of taking No-period Pill -cos it may leave a void for Immune to start attacking another area .

    Yeah,u cant think straight at a certain pain level. I knew that belly-dancing helps pass clot faster,(that’s what it was invented for!) ,but I forgot until the end>! Could only cling to toilet&curl up in fetal

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  35. Belly dancing was invented to help pass blood clots?? Where did you learn that? Tell more about that.

    You definitely can’t think straight at a certain pain level! We’re meant to have other people to help us, or just die if it’s bad enough, but we’re at this weird in between. We have enough protection to keep us surviving through all kinds of horrible things but not enough to really thrive. Very strange situation.

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  36. CW: I was amazed to hear that you had experienced those feelings, because I had been thinking to myself recently, WTF? Now what?

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  37. My lizard brain has been making me feel really mean. I’ve gotten myself better to a functional extent at least, despite how fucking unhelpful everyone is. And now I am in this survival mode where I know I have to make big things happen before something bad happens again. I feel this constant feeling of disaster being around every corner after having gone through so much. I know it could always get worse at any second. I want to be nice to everyone regardless of anything, but there is something inside me full of such rage it’s hard to control. I feel like part of me is done with being nice completely and I want to tell everyone to fuck off and shove everyone out of my way because most people are just assholes anyway and I’m tired of letting them hurt me. Just surviving isn’t good enough either, I want to actually live.

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  38. AWIH: “Just surviving isn’t good enough either, I want to actually live.” – – Yes. It’s necessary. A pre-condition of any continued existence.

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  39. That’s what I always thought but that’s not what my lizard brain is telling me. Mine is telling me that living, under any conditions, is what I’m going to do, and there’s nothing I can fucking do about it, even if it means I am homeless, sick, raped, pregnant, in jail or whatever. It doesn’t fucking matter to that bastard. This shit has turned me into something I no longer even recognize. It’s what made me call my family and beg for help, even when I knew they would humiliate me as much as possible and then say no. What the fuck is even happening to me man. I would have NEVER done that before, begged for help from a bunch of sadistic shitheads, when I already knew what they would say, not in a million fucking years. I would literally die first. When it got to that point, I attempted suicide, that’s how fucking serious I was about that. And I’m still here, and I have no idea if I even have what it takes to try again. I have never been so humiliated, and so disgusted, and so terrified in my entire fucking life. I know what you mean about feeling “mean” but that’s not what my lizard brain is doing to me. It’s something else entirely. It does not care AT ALL the conditions under which I live. I have ALWAYS cared deeply about that, so IDK what this even is or where it came from or how long its going to stay. It’s so horrific I can’t even think about it.

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  40. I’ve been imagining what a real life would look like. Nothing at all like we’ve been sold. The freedom to be surrounded by nature. The freedom to breathe clean air (at least cleaner). To eat from the Earth. To see stars! I’ve never in my life actually seen stars. It hurts so bad that the basics of life have been denied to me my whole existence. I’ve grown up on a cage.

    I came to recognize feminity for what it is, as a sadistic torture. All the years of suffering from that suddenly made sense. All the excessive focus on making sure my body was considered presentable while boys and men run around like little monkeys shown clearly with the blinders removed completely. It didn’t have anything to do with women being “beautiful.” The bizarre things I was tricked into doing, wearing high heels! It was all actually a form of sadism for men to masturbate to torturing women.

    I’ve been doubly enslaved as a human and as a woman and people told me this is freedom. I’m so angry now that I can see everything so much.

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  41. I’ve never felt such disgust or terror either. I feel humiliated for everyone else’s sake though, not about me. Like everyone needs to just shut the fuck up because we live in a nightmare and if they can’t realize that they are all morons.

    It’s hard to handle living life just from the level of disgust I feel towards everything. The way I’ve been treated is disgusting. And it seems like every single detail of everything has some horror behind it. You eat some peanut butter, oh well the orangutans are being killed horribly for Palm oil, you eat cashews, the women are being horribly scalded from the processing without proper protection and equipment. Clothes might be from some sweatshop. Everything is a nightmare.

    I can’t look at anything around me. I can’t stand it. The “progress” never ends, there are hardly any wooded areas here anymore.

    My brain is telling me to be vicious. Think like a fucking warlord, take what I need and what I want. Be ready to fight be ready to kill if necessary. I’ve spent so long just barely surviving that something deep inside me snapped. I grew up thinking that we lived in “civilization” and it was reasonably safe and rational, but no it’s not at all. Men are wild animals and most women aren’t great either. There is a savagery underneath everything because we still haven’t moved part competition to survive, even though it is no longer necessary.

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  42. I know what you mean about something inside you just wanting to live at any cost though. I think I’ve gone past that because I’ve felt a lot like that before. I was just ready to do anything to survive. I had all these goals of doing all these things with my life and doing some great achievements. I let everything go because I was so unwell I couldn’t even think straight and I just wanted to live and not die from some tooth infection or some other bullshit that’s easily fixable nowadays. I did crappy free lance work that got me no where I felt terrible all the time. I thought that was just going to be my life forever, never getting anywhere. Now I feel ready to do anything to survive in a different sort of way like I don’t care what I have to do I’m going to grab a real fucking life for myself and people need to help or get the fuck out of the way.

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  43. I only feel “humiliated” about begging my family for help. That is nothing I have ever done, not once in my entire fucking life. I knew that if I had the time, energy and need to “beg” then I had the time, energy and need to get ANOTHER paying job and that’s always what I did. I’ve had 3 or 4 jobs at a time before and I was always looking for something to do on the side. At least a job has to pay you after you put your hours in. Begging for help can get you nothing bc people can always say no, even after you’ve done everything they’ve asked. And that’s exactly the kind of family I have and that’s how I always treated the situation: that it was exactly what it was, nothing more and nothing less. And you are right that they should be humiliated, not me. But I begged them for help. I fucking hate myself honestly. I hate what is happening to me, I hate what it’s turning me into and I hate that there might be nothing I can do to stop it.

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  44. I hate it all too 😦 I hate what’s happening to me and to you and to everyone so many people I care about are so sick now. Some are facing severe poverty because of sickness and starting from a low place to begin with. One of my best friends growing up is so fucked. She has this horrible degenerative condition in her spine that would cost more than she’ll every be able to afford just to maybe improve it, not fix it. She has a kid and got a divorce and is now a single mother. She came from this poor family who weren’t able to give her much. There was this post you wrote before about how women ask “how are you?” When we know that we’re all doing terribly and I felt that so hard. Right before I read that, I had messaged her saying how are you even though I know she’s been doing terribly and that’s unlikely to change any time soon and possibly never. Her situation can easily get much worse. She didn’t message me back and I just felt so confused what I should be saying to her to connect with her. She’s doing terrible, so am I, so is everyone.

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  45. If I had money I’d send it to you and her and a few other people in a heartbeat, but I don’t even have enough for myself and my kitties. I just have to keep hoping that I’ll be able to do better quick enough before the next catastrophy. And the thing is I know I absolutely can do all kinds of things. IF I have a fucking break from some horrible thing happening for a while. You just can’t make things happen when you’re dealing with a horrible emergency every few months. I’ve managed to do so much but it’s all dragged along because I have some new nightmare over and over.

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  46. I don’t really understand how it’s even possible for someone to have 3 jobs. I seriously don’t think I’ve ever had enough energy in my life to focus on more than one major thing at the same time. Even when I was a teenager/ early 20s when I had plenty of energy and felt pretty much good and healthy I still needed so much sleep and rest. I really didn’t understand how much more rest I needed than other people for a long time because, you know how what you experience is just normal to you. I wondered how people could manage to do all these things and it was because I had to spend so much more time sleeping and resting. Now I’m wondering though if anyone is actually capable of working multiple jobs/ going to school and working full time WITHOUT doing serious damage to their body. I think maybe some people can push themselves for a while but they will collapse later on when they’ve completely destroyed their health.

    I think a lot of people can’t get through school because it requires your complete focus and energy and I don’t think most people have much energy to spare beyond that but they are still forced to work to. My mom always told me just to go to college and that was my job and that’s all that was important. I listened to her and believed that was what I needed to do to have a good life. That’s what you hear from everywhere and I saw how badly people had to struggle with regular jobs. So I did it all and did well. When I got done with the bachelor’s, regular jobs didn’t want me as I had so little official work experience and the job market was terrible and people were desperate. I went on to do another degree but then got so sick I struggled to have basic functioning. Now my mom berates me because I haven’t been working even though I did exactly what she told me to, to focus on school. She says how she’s been working since she was 16 and I should have been able to be working no matter how sick I was. Then she always starts talking about how her sister had to work while she was dying of cancer. She has no answer for how I would have worked when I could barely make it to the other room and I had no car and a half dead phone, but I just should have been doing it.

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  47. That’s interesting that you think this ruthless/warlord feeling is what’s past the survival under any conditions/lizard brain stuff. I hadn’t considered that there was anything beyond that. Is it realistic at all that you will be able to seize the day or whatever when you are so sick? I wonder what that even means. Sometimes I think and even feel like maybe I can just rally somehow and save myself lol. Then I come back to reality, where I can barely even function, and rarely for several days in a row, and where “pushing myself” rather than building stamina like I always used to, only makes me even worse. That’s the post-exertional malaise Anne talked about in her suicide letter, that shit is a bitch. A rally just ain’t going to happen. I’m also coming up on 50 years old and I have to keep reminding myself of that. In law school, many many times I remember being picked up or pushed by some invisible force that made me keep going beyond anything I could’ve ever imagined possible. Even at the time I wondered what that was and what was happening when that happened. I was always like you, where I needed a lot of sleep and rest but I was always able to do what needed to be done. But I was always, always able to rally before. Not anymore, or at least nothing that I can maintain for any length of time, and there is always hell to pay afterwards. And it is so crazy that so many people are experiencing the same thing. And so crazy making that most people just assume that everyone can rally forever and if you can’t it’s in your mind or you just aren’t properly motivated or whatever. If keeping a roof over anyone’s sick ass isn’t motivation enough, I don’t know what is, yet people seriously act like it’s an issue of motivation. Ugh. All I can say is, that has nothing to do with ANYTHING anymore, once you become seriously ill.

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  48. Exactly, I only started feeling so angry and mean like this once I started feeling well enough to be (sort of) functional again. Before I felt this hopeless depression feeling that seemed like it would never end where I wanted to beg anyone for help because it was all I could do and I just got crap when I tried to explain to people how horribly ill I was and barely functional. Even my (now ex) partner who was there having to sometimes actually help me get from room to room didn’t really seem to understand how bad off I was and I was doing the best I could to deal with it and still finish a hard degree and be about to do anything else.

    Now I understand I could get worse at any time and I have to use this bit of energy and ability I’ve gotten back to build something safe and functional and hopefully get some other people in on it too. And if anyone says bad things to me/does something shitty, they are getting told off so meanly and tossed aside, I have no more forgiveness. If anyone tries to actually hurt me they’re getting stabbed or something. I wouldn’t feel guilty about returning exactly whatever kind of shit someone is throwing at me and I would be prepared because I now always expect someone to try to hurt me in some way.

    I feel rage to the point of it taking up most of my feelings now. Like every bit of sadness I’ve had has just turned into this burning fury where anyone who tries to hurt me or anyone I care about needs to suffer. If I didn’t have kitties I feel like I would never be able to calm down. They calm me down instantly and nothing else really does. I hate being so angry and feeling hateful, and it’s like it’s not really “me” at all, but I also feel like it’s what’s going to be able to get me somewhere and I need to use this feeling in a constructive way where I just don’t care what anything thinks or does because I’m going to make things happen regardless. It’s something deep down telling me I need to fight to survive. Having a space of my own on this Earth and clean food and water and actually being about to live is my birthright and no one’s going to take it from me no matter what. And I’m going to do something big to get it that people think is crazy. So love motivates me for myself and to help others but anger drives me and protects me from feeling bad or doubtful of myself anymore.

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